Pastor Michael takes on Obama
My most devoted readers know that I’ve spent over four years covering the sign in front of the New England Baptist Church. Since I’ve moved the web site around, that content is harder to get at. I’ve moved all the posts so that the permalinks work, but I don’t have the content imported here yet. This is, in fact, the 19th time I’ve written about the church. I first became interested back during the Democratic National Convention in 2004 when they posted a very similar message to the one above about John Kerry.
Since then, there have been notable signs about homosexuality, earthquakes, and Halloween. There have also been some amusing signs, like the honk if you love Jesus sign and this recent one that I call Jesus pays your parking ticket.
There has also been a least one completely positive sign and then a whole bunch of other more generally religious ones. Last August, the Boston Globe covered the church and that was followed by a piece on CNN. The CNN piece used my photo from way back in 2004, by the way.
One thing you will find if you look at these articles is that even though I’m occasionally snarky about the signs, I’ve mostly just presented them without a lot of criticism. Now that I live in Arlington, I don’t get over to the church as much, but I drove by today on a whim. As I took the photos, none other than Pastor Thomas Michael approached me and started up a conversation. I’ll do my best to convey to you what that was like.
You should probably know from the start that I am a very dedicated believer in the freedom of speech. While I don’t agree with some of what Dr. Michael puts in the marquee, I think he has every right to say it. But his first question was along the lines of asking me what I thought of it. My response was that I felt that it was a very negative way to express an opinion. He immediately countered that it was true and asked if I could refute that.
Now here I was taken a little off guard. I hadn’t intended to debate him – I was there to take the picture. But it got us to talking and I found that it’s very hard to win an argument over a statement like this with someone who believes in a literal interpretation of the bible. He’s entitled to his point of view and if you do believe in the bible in that way, I can see where you’d be justified in feeling this way. What I objected to, I told him, and frankly, I was off-guard and didn’t make my point very well, was that it seems very counter to the message I’m always expecting to hear from religion – one of sort of love and peace. And I told him that I thought it was a pretty strong way to try to convince people to engage with his church.
He pulled out the bible at this point and walked me through a few passages. Fire and brimstone, you know, stuff like that. And I wasn’t going to debate over that stuff because there’s no point. I just disagree. At one point he asked me if I thought a certain passage was true or not. I can’t remember the specific verse, but I think it was along the lines of that Jesus died for our sins and so the way to God is through him, or something to that effect. And I told him that I couldn’t argue the former since I didn’t really know one way or the other, but that I had problems with the second part.
At this point, I did hear some things that bothered me. He talked about how those who don’t believe are destined for hell and backed it up with the appropriate passages. But then he specifically called out communists and muslims. This is one of the aspects of the conversation that bothered me. I wasn’t so much bothered by the communist reference as by the muslimone. And I won’t make the point here that I should have made to him directly because that’s not fair to him, since I didn’t tell him to his face. But I will say that I brought it up a level at that point. I told him that I had some problems with him taking issue with a whole culture like that, but that this was not the time or place to talk about it as it was Sunday morning and we both had things to do. Well, I did, and I’m pretty sure he did to as he is the pastor of that church.
So I came clean with him. I told him I’d been following his signs for a long time. That I didn’t agree with many of them, but that I thought he had a write to say and believe what he wanted. I told him that I thought he came pretty close to the line when it comes to what a church can or cannot advocate for, politically. I followed that up by saying that I hadn’t seen him cross the line, but it was close. I think that’s true – there is no call to action in this sign, for example. And then I told him I’d seen his interview with the Rabbi a few years back, that I found the whole thing interesting and that I’d be happy to talk more about it, but not right then.
And that is all true. I’m not a candidate for conversion, mind you, I am just fascinated by what I think of as rather extreme secularism of his messages. And to his credit, he is smart, well spoken and friendly. There was no animosity here. So it’s good we met. I gave him the blog address and my name and I would not be surprised if you don’t see more of Dr. Michael here in the future. You might even find him commenting on this article, which he views as publicity.
Comments
Comment from deist
Time October 28, 2008 at 2:27 am
Interesting thoughts from an article by Farrell Till
“[Thomas] Jefferson didn’t just reject the Christian belief that the Bible was ‘the inspired word of God’; he rejected the Christian system too. In Notes on the State of Virginia, he said of this religion, ‘There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites’ (quoted by newspaper columnist William Edelen, ‘Politics and Religious Illiteracy,’ Truth Seeker, Vol. 121, No. 3, p. 33).
Anyone today who would make a statement like this or others we have quoted from Jefferson’s writings would be instantly branded an infidel, yet modern Bible fundamentalists are frantically trying to cast Jefferson in the mold of a Bible believing Christian. They do so, of course, because Jefferson was just too important in the formation of our nation to leave him out if Bible fundamentalists hope to sell their ‘Christian-nation’ claim to the public. Hence, they try to rewrite history to make it appear that men like Thomas Jefferson had intended to build our nation on ‘biblical principles.’ The irony of this situation is that the Christian leaders of Jefferson’s time knew where he stood on ‘biblical principles,’ and they fought desperately, but unsuccessfully, to prevent his election to the presidency. Saul K. Padover’s biography related the bitterness of the opposition that the clergy mounted against Jefferson in the campaign of 1800:
The religious issue was dragged out, and stirred up flames of hatred and intolerance. Clergymen, mobilizing their heaviest artillery of thunder and brimstone, threatened Christians with all manner of dire consequences if they should vote for the “in fidel” from Virginia. This was particularly true in New England, where the clergy stood like Gibraltar against Jefferson (Jefferson A Great American’s Life and Ideas, Mentor Books, 1964, p.116).”
and, of course, there’s a lot more where that came from @
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html
Comment from Sinead
Time October 30, 2008 at 5:56 am
I wish Dr Michael and Esther would read a book called “Angels in my hair” by Lorna Byrne.
http://www.play.com/Books/Books/4-/5201952/Angels-in-My-Hair/Product.html?source=5004&kwmid=7969329&kmcid=2245999376&match_type=
Comment from Kukatchu
Time January 21, 2009 at 8:45 am
The verse you’re referring to that the pastor probably showed you is John 14:6 – Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
It is for this reason that the Bible indicates that muslims and hindus, and buddhists, and etc. won’t go to heaven. Because Jesus made it clear in this verse that HE is the ONLY way to be saved. So anyone who rejects Jesus Christ can not go to heaven. Being saved, or a Christian, isn’t about living a good moral life (although if you’re a genuine one, you’ll want to live a good moral life). Our human morality is NOT enough with God. It will work between humans, but not with God. Look at it this way: our human morality is like monopoly money. If you have a lot of it, you win. But you only win in the game of monopoly. But, you can’t, once the game is over, go buy yourself a new car with your monopoly winnings. That money is only good in the game. So it is true with our human morality. It’s only good between people. It won’t work with God.
We need a righteousness that we can’t get from ourselves. The only person we can get it from is Jesus Christ. When He died for us, he made it possible to make a transaction with Him. If we ask, He will take our human righteousness (which the Bible says is like “filthy rags.”), and he will give us His righteousness. Another analogy: If I go to a fancy restaurant where a coat and tie is needed to be seated but I’m wearing a t-shirt. Jesus, in essence, will give us His coat and tie, so that the maitre d will see us as clothed properly to be allowed in to the restaurant. We need the covering of Jesus’ righteousness to get into heaven. He’s the only one that has an absolute perfect righteousness that God is looking for. This is why no one can come to God (or get to heaven) without Jesus.
And for the record, I don’t think churches like this do Christ followers any favors by posting such messages. While I do technically agree with the statement, I think there’s a right way and a wrong way to get that message out. This is a negative, and hateful appearing way to do it. That’s unfortunate!
Comment from Kukatchu
Time January 22, 2009 at 10:10 pm
Oh and by the way, I paged through your pictures of other signs from this church, and even though I’m a Christian, I feel the majority of them come across so hatefully. How unfortunate. While God does punish sin, He is equally as loving and He is just. Please, whoever sees these signs, don’t think that this is an accurate representation of true Biblical Christianity.
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Time January 25, 2009 at 2:38 pm
[...] to figure out just what the call to action in this message is. It’s pretty clear to me, given previous messages on the sign, that Pastor Michael is making another anti-abortion argument. However, the [...]
Comment from Dave Williams
Time March 3, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Dave, regarding your statement, “I can’t remember the specific verse, but I think it was along the lines of that Jesus died for our sins and so the way to God is through him, or something to that effect. “.
My guess is that he pulled out John 3:16 (King James Version) – “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
That’s the subject of many bumper stickers, tee-shirts, and vacation bible camp lessons down in this part of the world. I guess it’s their version of a “conversation starter”. A little bit heavy if you are seeking to bring people in (if you ask me).
Comment from Esther
Time October 27, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Three cheers for Dr. Michael! We need more people like him to stand up for what is right! Our country was founded on the principles taught in the Bible! We have gone too far away from our foundations in this country!